Interview With Abdul Rochim Ba'asyir: I Have Lost Trust In The Police

Barometerpost - Abdul Rochim Ba’asyir or usually referred as Iim is often called the successor of Abu Bakar Ba’asyir in continuing the da'wah of Islamic jihad. Iim is the youngest son of Ba’asyir. Terrorism analysts and intelligence always described Iim as a strategist and management expert. The organization “al-Ghuraba”, formed during his studies in Pakistan together with his friends, among others were Muhammad Jibriel Abdurahman and Gun Gun Rusman Gunawan, a younger brother of Hambali is suspected as a wing of al-Qaidah in Indonesia.

More about Iim, the following is a special interview with Iim by Robi Sugara from the Barometer magazine in the office of the Pondok Pesantren (traditional Islamic boarding school) of Almukmin Ngruki, Solo, Central Java, 20th November 2010.

Indonesia is a country of Pancasila, not an Islamic country, it was the result of a compromise from the ulama's, why does your group keep struggling for the Islamic Shari'ah?

Do not simply believe that this country is the result of a compromise. It is not true. I personally asked Mr. Suryanegara, an Indonesian historian. At the heart of the matter, he said the formation of this country resulted from a betrayal. According to history, there was someone who came to Soekarno from Japan. He came from Maluku by traversing a one night journey. At that time, was it possible to make the trip in one night? Even if using a plane, the plane should have been known. Because at that time anyone using an aircraft could be monitored. Mr. Suryanegara said there was an effort of confusing the history. Because the ulama's who had been discussing to include the Islamic Shari'ah into the foundation of the state were intercepted just like that by Soekarno. Then the meeting was closed. So the treachery started out from Jakarta.

Researchers and Islamic groups often describe that there is confusion in the concept of Islam by the jihadist groups, could you please explain?

That perspective of confusion comes from themselves. Such as when Allah commanded Iblis to prostrate to the human. Iblis did not want. With his judgment, he said that he is more noble than the humans who are made from the dust (of the ground). Now, this is what's imitated by the humans from amongst the jinn who judge us wrong (confused). We understand that Islam is a religion that brings to unity and Islam respects differences.

Nothing can be found in the history of mankind's existence in this world, where a country ruled by the non-Muslim, was respecting Islam. You know in Cordova, Spain, since the Islamic power was taken over by the Christians, the Islamic ummah were crushed. When the rule was held by Islam before that, it was not like that. Okay, that was a long time ago. But let's look at the year 1990's. In Bosnia, the Islamic ummah were cruelly attacked by the Christian Serbs. Whereas, the Islamic ummah in Bosnia at that time, were not much different from the Christian in terms of culture. The behavior also did not reflect Islam. Muslims there used to drink liquor everyday. What distinguished them were just the name, such as Abdullah and so on. But they were crushed.

Then we look at Maluku. Did the Muslims in Maluku want to demand for the Islamic Shari'ah when they were attacked by the Christians. So what actually happened? Who did not bring peace? Islam or otherwise.

The problem now, the stamping down of the Muslims by the Christians did not develop from among themselves, but there are provocateurs from among the Jews. The Jews extremely hate Islam. If returned to history, since the time of the Prophet, the provocateurs are Jewish either individually or under a State which is ruled by the Zionism movement. So they were the brains that create the chaos on earth. The Christians here are only used as a tool. It was the Christians who killed but the provocateurs are the Jews.

So those who killed the prophets were also the Jews. If the Christians chose not to be familiar with this issue, then they will only be used as a tool or riding horse by the Jews. Look at the American president, if anyone wants to be the president he must first show his face to Israel. So worship the cemetery of the founders of Israel first. You must first show your Jewishness.

There is this concept of al-Walla wal-Barra that makes your group radical, could you please explain?

Al-Walla is loyalty, wal-Barra is anti-loyalty (disloyalty). Loyalty to Allah, His Rasul and the Muslims. This concept is the concept of servitude to Allah where its consequence is being obedient, submissive, loyal and etc. Then there is also loyalty to Prophet Muhammad as an apostle (messenger of Allah). The outcome is following all of his teachings. Loyalty to the people of Islam who are mu'min is through ukhuwah (brotherhood). So if here we feel the pains of our brothers in Palestine, it is because of Walla (loyalty) to fellow Muslims. The same goes vice versa. So that's Islam. Walla is obligatory upon us. When Muslims do not have the Walla, it can cancel out the aqeedah.

Barra is anti-loyalty or freeing oneself from someone/something. Being free from Shaytan. Allah explicitly says that Shaytan is a very real enemy of the human. Shaytans are of two types: Jinns and Human Beings. Therefore, we are freeing ourselves from its jinns and also its human beings. Who is said to be the Shaytan? Shaytan is a name derived from the Arabic language from the word Shatona which means to steer away, too far away or over the limit. So they are staying away from Allah and Rasul, from His commandments. Due to that, they can be in the form of jinn or mankind. So those who are called shaytan amongst the humans are the kafir. Whether they are the kafir who pretend to be mu'min or the genuinely kafir. So the concept of wal barra is, we do not want to have anything to do with them. Including in matters of muamalah. Except for the worldly affairs for the common good such as building bridges, regulating economic interests for trade. Because these were done by Prophet Muhammad and his Sahabahs. This concept of al walla wal barra must be hand in hand. We cannot just use one.

In practice, the movement of your group is more dominant in its jihad?

The emergence of jihad is a response to a condition where Islam instructs jihad. Jihad is to defend Allah and His Rasul. The Prophet had already said it that jihad will continue on this earth until judgment day. The teaching of jihad is a guarantee from Prophet Muhammad. So if America is doing the deradicalization or dejihadization, then let there be challenge if the deradicalization can be accomplished. If you can get rid of jihad from the surface of this earth, let my neck be cut off. Why? Because I am confident that Prophet Muhammad was not wrong in saying that. Maybe they can extinguish the jihad spirit of Ustadz Abu, but they will never be able to eliminate the existence of a small group of people who are advocating jihad.

But the jihad that is depicted today are bombings, robberies and murders?

It is just a problem of understanding. I say there is recklessness. There is lack of carefulness. Like the people in a war. Whether we want to use heavy or light weapons. So the commanding officer determines. The commander is the ulama' in Islam. What weapons to be used as per the ulama's? To use use heavy or light weapons? Is it a close range or long-distance battle. This seems less well-understood by the implementers. But as for me, I can understand it. Because they have already become very emotional and offended. We want to implement the Islamic Shari'ah, but we are not allowed. We want to establish the Islamic Shari'ah, but we are vilified as terrorists. Our Pondok pesantrens (traditional Islamic boarding school) continue to be disturbed. Our youths are destroyed. So they become angry.

But the fact now is, those who did the robbery are the jihadist groups?

It's up to you if you want to believe it or not. We judge something with knowledge.

Your response to armed training in Aceh?

They are the people who are highly spirited in training for the purpose of jihad. The name is I’dad. I'dad in Islam is wajib (compulsory). They just want to carry out a part of the Islamic Shari'ah, then are accused of going to make terror. From what I've heard they exercised because they wanted to go to Palestine. They trained because they want to help their brothers. Then some said that it is used to attack foreigners, president SBY, who said that? The police, those liars.

Frankly speaking, I have lost trust in the police. At SCTV (National Private Television Station), I met with the police personnel named Untung Ketut Yoga. He was asked by the presenter of SCTV, is the Densus 88 funded by America? He said no. The fund is only for training aid. Whereas, I have an information that 3 out of 10 valid sources said that the Densus 88 is funded by America. I worry that the Densus 88 will become like the Blackwater in the near future, especially the Satgas Bom, which will only be used as a hired group for political and other interests. If it were so, what's the difference with the hitmen.

I said in front of Mr. Yoga, “Sorry, I do not believe the talk of the police”. Yoga said it is the usual response of a child to his father (lying). I was a little angry actually, it's like this person has no moral. He has no shame, an official like this is lying openly to the public. True, those invited were only small children from the pesantren. But those who watched out there were many. I know he is not a Muslim. But I will not question that. He is a Hindu. Is lying allowed in his religion? All religions do not allow lying.

Your hope on the case of Abu Bakar Ba’asyir?

If talking about the verdict on the case of Ustadz Abu, we never hope. The judge has been bought. At the earlier trials of Ustadz Abu, the public prosecutor approached Ustadz Abu at every session and asked for apology. The public prosecutor then was an alumni of the Gontor Pesantren. A younger schoolmate of Ustadz Abu during their study in Gontor. I think it will surely happen again this time. I hope the government are honest. Not flirting with the enemies of Islam who in truth want to destroy Islam.

So I hope there is honesty. That there is a true dialogue with the people or groups who are accused by them as radical and terrorists. A right dialogue. For example, a dialogue between the president and Ustadz Abu. Say the president is saying, “Mr. Abu what do you want?” Why doesn't he dare and want to meet with Ustadz Abu. Now, do the government dare to meet face to face with the ulama's whom they assessed as radical. Engage in dialogue. Not by way of war. Because for me the war does not resolve the issue.

Who will be organizing that dialogue?

It does not matter who. Let's come, Pondok pesantren. Let's come, Government. We are ready to come. But it has to be an honest dialogue. Currently, the programs carried out are only spending the budget. Requesting from America to hold the event. That's the mentality of this nation.

Among the jihadists themselves, they are often divided?

The enemies of Islam are always pitting Muslims against each other. Plus those that come from among themselves, i.e. not checking for the truth if there was any issue.

Is the JAT sterile from the infiltration of the intelligence?

Nope. There are those who are always trying to get into. They exaggerated differences. I'm sure there is. If caught, we will surely kick out.

How about the forthcoming concept that will be done by the JAT?

As long as this country does not use weapons in fighting the Islam ummah directly . For me we have to convey the true concept of Islam and putting it into practice continuously, so that the public could see. Though I believe that in the end the State will take up arms. Because that's what experienced by our brothers in Somalia.

Can you tell what happened in Somalia?

The story from Somalia arose from a group who are committed in applying the Shari'ah of Islam. Before the current As-Shabaab. They built masjids and served the people who want to return to the Shari'ah. They tended to the problems of family, economy and others, to be settled by way of the Shari'ah. Since this concept was considered as fair, their followers continued to grow. Until that time, Somalia became divided. One part wanted to return to the Shari'ah and the other one refused to return to the Shari'ah. The district that refused to return to the Shari'ah was filled with bandits, gambler and robbers. The district that wanted to return to the Shari'ah was secure. Even at the times of prayer, it's enough to just cover their merchandise with cloth. But nothing was stolen.

Then, those who were anti-Shari'ah were worried that this could later develop into a State. It will definitely become a state as it gets sympathy from the people. America was full of anger. From there they created fitnah about that danger. Small wars broke out. At that time, Syeh Syarif was still uniting with the Mujahideen group. They had won for a while. But then Syeh Syarif changed side to cooperate with the West. He turned around with the view of democracy.

The Muslims said that democracy is contrary to the Islamic Shari'ah. It could not be found in the Qur'an and Sunnah. Democracy is shirk. Syeh Syarif was determined to accept democracy. Eventually those groups broke away from the leadership of Syeh Syarif. The people of Somalia are supporting the Shari'ah. Syeh Syarif finally left because there was no support. That strategy of Syeh Syarif did not work, he then used the army. Somalia was attacked by Ethiopia. Ethiopia was in exhaustion. Currently the UN (United Nation) troops are being used. For the Mujahideen, they have no problem confronting anyone because for them this is the door the paradise.

So in Indonesia, if your movement becomes bigger they would be suppressed?

Yes. But we cannot stop. We must keep on struggling. Da'wah must be implemented by way of peace and also must be defended with a force. Ibnu Taimiyah analogized that Islam works out by the Qu'ran and the Sword that defends it. To do that there must be preparation (i'dad).

Including the training in Aceh?

The Aceh is also included in the preparations. But not the program we plan. Hope you will not mention later from this interview that I and the JAT approve the training. The JAT has already explained our program to the apparatuses around here. We have invited them (officials and apparatuses) but they don't want to come. This is the mentality of our government officials, they are invited but they refuse to come, but behind they talk such and such things. They don't know us well, but already calling us radical.

The terrorist detainees are also recruiting in prisons?

The terrorist detainees can change other prisoners to become good. Ustadz Abu and Habib Riziek had been building “pesantrens” in the Cipinang and Salemba LP (Correctional Institution / Prison) respectively. The Pesantrens had been “graduating” many people. I am not sure if the pesantren still exists now. A lot of inmates, after being in contact with “terrorist” inmates, have their religion become good. But now, although they have brought ustadzs from outside, it was unable to make the prisoners become good. So what else could be said if they have to be called evil people? If they bomb, let's see what the problem was. Do not believe the words of Obama.

It has been mentioned that you are the one to carry on the leadership of Ustadz Abu?

It is similar to comparing the cat with the tiger. Even if they are scared of me, alhamdulillah. I get the heavenly reward. So, just by hearing my name, they are already scared. Let them be like that. The enemies of the Rasul then were made to be scared by Allah. Although it was still a month until Prophet Muhammad actually came to Makkah at that time, many people were already scared of him. If they are scared of me, this might be an advantage granted by Allah. I have only been at home all this time. I have never done anything.

You are known as a champion in strategy and managerial tasks?

I do not have much role. If in the JAT and pesantren we move along together. If in strategy, we use the strategy of Rasulullah.